Carrie Underwood Fans
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Miranda Lambert - The Weight Of These Wings
- Thread starter abbeyjones18
- Start date
lizcarlo
Well-known member
A signature by Loretta how awesome! .. I would be protective of that one to
.. It would be fitting for the song. Miranda reminds me of Loretta Lynn.
Farawayhills
Well-known member
The effect on Miranda's career is uncertain - but probably depends on what aspect of it is meant. These are only guesses.
I think her Mainstream career is likely to be damaged - but she has seemed to have been moving away from this since her divorce anyway. She's received little radio play in this era, and this publicity (I would think) would make it less likely to recover. The main reasons for that are that radio tends to be controversy-averse, and the "call out" testing tends to catch casual general listeners, rather than dedicated fans of the artist, or the music. It's generally agreed that the "call out" listeners contacted in the Mainstream genre tend towards social conservatism, and may have a particularly negative image of perceived sexual or marital misconduct when it involves a woman. If her recent lack of radio support is mainly attributed to the more off-format style of the music (which has clearly been a factor, but in my view, probably not the only one), I think the latest controversy would make it harder to get back on radio, even if she adopted a more Mainstream-friendly style on a future album. (Bear in mind, too, that she is currently working on a Pistol Annies album, so there would be a likely gap before her next solo album, and an even longer gap since her last significant radio hits - getting back after that would be harder, even without new negative factors.) There have been many signs that radio play has not been her main priority recently, and I think she is repositioning her career, while seeing touring, streaming and her image with less radio-focused music fans as more important.
I think her more Alternative career is less likely to be damaged - and may be enhanced in the minds of people who admire independence, and reject the view of women being required to conform to stricter social conventions than men. A significant number of tweets that I've seen show a backlash against her detractors - these often don't seek to absolve or excuse her, but rather take the view that she doesn't need excusing, and the judgmental hostility (real or ideologically inspired) is the greater problem. For good or bad, marital infidelity has a long history in Country Music, especially (but certainly not exclusively) in the more Outlaw sub genres. To take just a few examples - Johnny Cash and Waylon Jennings both left their wives for women they were touring with - and their new loves - Johnny and June, Waylon and Jessi became "golden couples", iconic parts of the tradition, celebrated in other people's songs. There are also female examples - Tammy Wynnette being particularly noted for entering and leaving a succession of relationships. Something of a record is probably held by Steve Earle, who has been through seven marriages and divorces. I would cite Steve, in fact, as an example of why I, and many others, would put the music first, and the personal frailties a long way behind. This elegy on the death of Townes Van Zandt, filmed at the Bluebird, with Kelly Joe Phelps providing well-judged accompaniment on slide is, for me, one of the great moments in the genre, that brings a lump to my throat whenever I hear it.
I think Miranda's music often leads to similar reactions for many core Country fans - and while things are definitely harder for women today in the Mainstream, that is unlikely to change on the more Alternative fringe.
Finally, there is the question of whether it might affect Miranda's award voting. In that respect, I can't help thinking of the picture she posted earlier this year, of herself in front of a mirror, with the words "I do this thing called whatever I want" scrawled in red, perhaps in lipstick. (This picture was before the present controversy, and can't be directly related to it.) It got a very positive reaction from many fans, who related it to her music, and her attitude to the Mainstream format. The most interesting thing to me, though, was that the photo was tagged as taken by Crystal Dishmon. She is in charge of artist representation and publicity at Shopkeeper Management, and has probably played a significant part in building voting support for Miranda. There are, I think, a couple of ways of interpreting her apparent endorsement of this photo. One is that she didn't see Miranda's assertive and carefree attitude to convention as damaging to her award voting (which seems to have been borne out at the ACM - where Crystal is one of the elected directors - and where Miranda got the double validation for her acclaimed album, following last year's AOTY with this year's SOTY). But the other possibility may be that Crystal was endorsing Miranda's expressed wish to play down awards in general. The photo was posted around the time of the Grammy awards - which Miranda skipped, for the second year running, despite being in New York, going instead, with Crystal, her senior manager and her dress designer to a Broadway show, on what the foursome called a 'Girls Night Out'. Some interpreted this as a protest at the relative lack of female nominees (Miranda herself had been nominated, but concentrated instead on the next night's performance at the Elton John tribute).
The question is - will her award nominations continue, after this negative publicity? Nashville Scene earlier attributed her decade of nominations at the Country shows to an alliance between more critically influenced voters, and those on the more commercially influenced wing who nevertheless vote for music they prefer, rather than for what their label prefers. Again, I can only guess, but my feeling is that some of that voting on the more commercial side will now break away, and the ACM voting may prove to have been a peak - and that Miranda's management are foreseeing that. (But this is a notoriously uncertain area to predict)
pklongbeach
Active member
I am not really sure how you effectively ignore the person providing the music and embrace the music. I think if someone is an accomplished musician and they are playing a major piece of classical music you may be able to separate the artist from the art. Maybe. Not me. But some seem to be able to see the distance between the two.
But it seems odd to me that one would consider what a singer like Miranda does and not see her in it. And not understand that you are supporting it. If what you claim to love is her ability to express herself in her music than how do you disconnect who she is and what she does? And how far to you extend this disconnect? I would hope at some point when she is hurting people so badly you might be able to say "I am just not ok with this".
I go back to the classical analogy: Richard Wagner is considered one of the great German composers. It also came to light that he was a Nazi sympathizer even to the extent of being a supporter. Many are able to say I can separate the music from the man and still enjoy the creation of the music. I can Not. I just can't. I feel the person. I accept them in when I embrace their art. I can't do otherwise except choose not to. I don't listen to Wagner. And I won't. I can not create the disconnect.
Now Miranda is no Wagner, by any means...... ha ha ha. But for me its still that conversation of people who say "I don't care what they do I can still enjoy the music". OK. I don't see how. But ok.
Sadly for me, if Carrie had done these same thing and created this level of controversy around herself I would have been gone long ago. I am grateful I don't have to do that.
But it seems odd to me that one would consider what a singer like Miranda does and not see her in it. And not understand that you are supporting it. If what you claim to love is her ability to express herself in her music than how do you disconnect who she is and what she does? And how far to you extend this disconnect? I would hope at some point when she is hurting people so badly you might be able to say "I am just not ok with this".
I go back to the classical analogy: Richard Wagner is considered one of the great German composers. It also came to light that he was a Nazi sympathizer even to the extent of being a supporter. Many are able to say I can separate the music from the man and still enjoy the creation of the music. I can Not. I just can't. I feel the person. I accept them in when I embrace their art. I can't do otherwise except choose not to. I don't listen to Wagner. And I won't. I can not create the disconnect.
Now Miranda is no Wagner, by any means...... ha ha ha. But for me its still that conversation of people who say "I don't care what they do I can still enjoy the music". OK. I don't see how. But ok.
Sadly for me, if Carrie had done these same thing and created this level of controversy around herself I would have been gone long ago. I am grateful I don't have to do that.
prettylittlemustang
Member
Unfortunately, she’s a woman and Radio has no qualms about shutting them out. Yet, they’ll still play Jason Aldean to death. Ugh.
pklongbeach
Active member
YEs, the sexist issue still looms large... No matter what, it still takes two to tango.
Farawayhills
Well-known member
Yes, in this case, a married one and an unmarried one. And it's the unmarried one who's getting the most disapproval. And, to my not very great surprise, she's the woman. So, as you say, the sexist issue still looms very large.
Farawayhills
Well-known member
(I realize you're mainly using Wagner as an analogy - but if you do have a problem with his music, it's because of what other people later used it for. Wagner himself died in 1883, well before the Nazi era. I think the only member of his family who might personally have been a Nazi sympathizer was his daughter-in-law, Winifred, who inherited the management of the Bayreuth opera house from Wagner's son. She did host Hitler on several occasions when he visited the opera, though even that may not necessarily imply she would have approved of all he did.)
On your main point, as I've said, people are going to react to the issue in the way they decide - but they can't expect everyone to react in the same way. How people react to this issue is likely to be influenced by a variety of assumptions, including how much reliance they place on the coverage; whether they can separate that coverage from what they believe about the sources and motivation of those providing it; the previous impressions they've formed of the participants; the interpretation they give to the ethics of judging your neighbour or casting stones; the way they evaluate the importance of sexual or marital transgressions in relation to other human weaknesses. Any or all of those assumptions can vary from person to person, so whether or not we can share or understand their reactions, we can't expect them to be the same.
There are likely to be many issues that some people will find difficulty in separating from their appreciation or otherwise of an artist's music. Political views are a common sticking point - others may range from violent or abusive behaviour, sexual transgressions, through alcohol or drug issues, to relatively trivial things like appearance or profane language - even things that others see as positive, such as vegetarianism, can be a critical issue for others. But, short of the most extreme behaviour, it will usually depend in large part on how important the person considers the undesirable aspect to be in relation to the artists' actions and musical contribution as a whole. If you do not particularly like the music, or consider it important, it may be an easy decision to withdraw or deny support. But if you consider the music to be outstanding, or the contribution to be of great value to the genre, the issue becomes much more complex.
I don't follow Miranda because she's Miranda (a person I don't even know personally, but realize has flaws, as I do myself) - I follow her because her music is very much in line with what I want to see in the format, is greatly enriching the contemporary Mainstream, and is almost unique in the way in which it combines a range of roots traditions with progressive experimentation. This incident, and this aspect of the spectrum of all she is and does, is not going to change or overrule that.
pklongbeach
Active member
You are right about the way people judge. And as someone who has spent his life being heavily judged and scrutinized it stands out when another is not.
I feel like I could write the same paragraphs you wrote above but inject Carries name and it would all be true except the last line. I could and would walk away.
I guess there are just lines for me. We are all empowered to be good humans if we want to be. And "falling in love with someone who is in a relationship" is a mistake but it can happen. You should know to be strong enough to avoid it but you can get lost in the feeling and make mistakes.
You can not do this numerous times though without accepting what you are doing to innocent people. And to a cultural institution that the nation believes it stands on. Which in some ways it does.
Its just too many times at this point.
I thought yesterday that I would move forward and imagine it from the perspective of the wife "the real 3rd wheel". The one no one cares about. As we all talk about Miranda and her feelings because she is a celebrity, she was able to crush a persons future and heart and soul. And we won't even say her name. As if because Miranda is a celebrity she deserves more consideration than the woman whos life was just destroyed.
We have to remember Miranda did not mastermind some great scheme. She did not great crime. She had sex with a guy while his wife sat at home waiting for him to come home. That is all. And in its most insignificant it's petty and mean. And it shows loath for oneself.
Sorry, we have gotten so used to talking about people on country cheating on each other it has truly lost its meaning. We just accept what Aldean or Brooks or Rimes does as if its just pop-candy and we go on to enjoy their celebrity status with them. I guess I am not that star struck. I think it's wrong and petty and says a lot about a person that they can do in the first place.
Oh well. She warned us with Vice that this is simply who she is. And Jesus loves her and she drinks wine which means she is accepted for who she is. It's all part of the package. If you're in to that kind of thing.
I feel like I could write the same paragraphs you wrote above but inject Carries name and it would all be true except the last line. I could and would walk away.
I guess there are just lines for me. We are all empowered to be good humans if we want to be. And "falling in love with someone who is in a relationship" is a mistake but it can happen. You should know to be strong enough to avoid it but you can get lost in the feeling and make mistakes.
You can not do this numerous times though without accepting what you are doing to innocent people. And to a cultural institution that the nation believes it stands on. Which in some ways it does.
Its just too many times at this point.
I thought yesterday that I would move forward and imagine it from the perspective of the wife "the real 3rd wheel". The one no one cares about. As we all talk about Miranda and her feelings because she is a celebrity, she was able to crush a persons future and heart and soul. And we won't even say her name. As if because Miranda is a celebrity she deserves more consideration than the woman whos life was just destroyed.
We have to remember Miranda did not mastermind some great scheme. She did not great crime. She had sex with a guy while his wife sat at home waiting for him to come home. That is all. And in its most insignificant it's petty and mean. And it shows loath for oneself.
Sorry, we have gotten so used to talking about people on country cheating on each other it has truly lost its meaning. We just accept what Aldean or Brooks or Rimes does as if its just pop-candy and we go on to enjoy their celebrity status with them. I guess I am not that star struck. I think it's wrong and petty and says a lot about a person that they can do in the first place.
Oh well. She warned us with Vice that this is simply who she is. And Jesus loves her and she drinks wine which means she is accepted for who she is. It's all part of the package. If you're in to that kind of thing.
Perfectly spoken....... I really respect your posts.......
I think all the disapproval that she is getting is because this seems to be a pattern for her. I always go back to Leann Rimes when she cheated on her husband with another married man she was practically ran out of town. Now I know she wasn't at her peak, but country music treated her horribly.
Whereas with Miranda they seem to just be brushing it off. Like she can act as bad as she wants and they just don't care.
Farawayhills
Well-known member
We'll just have to disagree, I'm afraid.
The treatment Leann Rimes experienced seems to me to have had little to do with Country Music - it was fueled, fired, and continued by the general entertainment and celebrity gossip sites - largely the same sites, in fact, who are attacking Miranda. I don't think she was "practically run out of town" - I think she'd effectively "left town" years before her marital problems erupted. She appeared to want to concentrate on the general music sector, which did, to a significant extent, embrace her as a Pop culture celebrity - this led to the excessive concentration on her personal life in the gossip media.
For my part, I can feel sorry for her, but it's difficult for me to get behind her music, as I'm afraid I don't listen to most of it, don't really appreciate much of it stylistically, and don't feel it would impact the genre in the ways I would want. That has nothing to do with her personal life - I hope she's happy in her life, and I wish her well in the career she chose. Her teenage breakout song, "Blue", was a great song, and a great performance, easily transcending the largely made up story that was used to promote it. But she soon moved her career in a different direction - and however good she may be at that, it wasn't a direction that was really very relevant to what I wanted to see in the Country Mainstream.
With Miranda, as I've tried to explain, her music is vastly more relevant to me, so I would want her career to survive. Again, the music, and what it can do, is much more important to me than the personal details - though I can understand that for others, the reverse may be true
simonplay
Well-known member
I'm one of those people that can't separate the person from the music, it happened to me with Taylor, I like some of her songs but I can't listen because I can't stand her. The same goes to Miranda and even more now, I don't think these kind of people deserve any success .
I think Miranda deserves her success, but I do tend to have a hard time separating the music from the person, especially when they use their personal experiences for their music.
My main thing is holding people accountable for their actions, and yes cheating on someone or with someone is trivial in comparison to other things, but there comes a point in time where people have to learn from their mistakes and be better people, and their should be some consequences because that is the only way that they are going to learn.
Btw, I don't make a distinction between men and women in this regard.
Farawayhills
Well-known member
To clarify, "separating the music from the person" is not what I'm trying to do. Others are seeing it in those terms - but that's not the way I see it. The person creates the music, and that person and their experiences are always likely to be present in the resulting music. To some extent, their philosophy, their character and their experiences are always likely to be present in the music - it's not usually possible to separate the extent to which each element influences the resulting music, or how it's overlaid or embellished by other elements - but the result is always likely to be a package that includes parts of the author's life. How a given listener takes or rejects that package is influenced by the various assumptions and perceptions we've been discussing - the way the listeners perceive the result is likely to involve elements that come from themselves, as well as from the elements the author includes in the work.
For me, the resulting music is usually the paramount element in the package - and that is the aspect that I mainly focus on. The gossip and entertainment magazines, and, in this case, Fox News (which definitely seems to have led the extent and tone of the reporting, in contrast to the other major news networks), are mainly focused on the personalities involved, and their activities outside the music sphere. They rarely discuss the actual music as music, or in terms of its impact on the current state of the genre - but those are the aspects that mainly interest me.
So, to summarize, I'm not saying that the persons involved can, or should, be seen as separate from their creations - but I do think the elements that are being focused on are often separated in the minds of observers - and that depends a lot on their priorities. Because those priorities are always likely to differ, I don't think it's realistic to expect everyone to see a particular case in the same way.
For me, the resulting music is usually the paramount element in the package - and that is the aspect that I mainly focus on. The gossip and entertainment magazines, and, in this case, Fox News (which definitely seems to have led the extent and tone of the reporting, in contrast to the other major news networks), are mainly focused on the personalities involved, and their activities outside the music sphere. They rarely discuss the actual music as music, or in terms of its impact on the current state of the genre - but those are the aspects that mainly interest me.
So, to summarize, I'm not saying that the persons involved can, or should, be seen as separate from their creations - but I do think the elements that are being focused on are often separated in the minds of observers - and that depends a lot on their priorities. Because those priorities are always likely to differ, I don't think it's realistic to expect everyone to see a particular case in the same way.
Farawayhills
Well-known member
I feel I should post a little about the Turnpike Troubadours, who seem to have been rather overlooked in this discussion - but are of great importance to many fans on the more Alternative wing of Country Music. I know Lizcarlo is a fan - as am I - but they may be largely unknown to many Mainstream fans. And that, rather than the sensationalized affair coverage, is the actual significance of them joining Miranda's tour. Whether people approve of her or not, she remains one of very few artists with Mainstream recognition who would take a band from this wing of the genre out on a major tour - and that unification of the different strands of Country (which often seem to operate entirely in their own spheres) is an aspect which has run through Miranda's work - most notably in the Four - the Record era, and the present TWOTW era. It's one of the aspects of her career which makes her, for me, such a significant figure in the genre today.
To give you an idea of the stylistic range the Troubadours cover, this is a quote from All Music:
"A gritty, country-leaning roots rock band out of eastern Oklahoma, Turnpike Troubadours at their best synthesize the populist, political folk of Woody Guthrie and the outlaw-styled honky tonk of Waylon Jennings with doses of bluegrass, Cajun, and straight-out rock dynamics."
Music of this sort has, until recently, had very little exposure in the Mainstream (and where this is changing today, e,g. in work by Eric Church, Chris Stapleton, Brothers Osborne, it probably owes a lot to the lead that Miranda has been using her position for years, as a critically acclaimed songwriter, album artist and relentless tour performer, to establish as an accepted strand - something that a variety of sites, from Rolling Stone to Saving Country Music, and from Billboard to Nashville Scene have acknowledged.
The Turnpike Troubadours seem to have first got together in Tahlequah in 2005 (so it is possible that Carrie knows some of the band). They took their name from the Indian Nation Turnpike, a road in the South East of Oklahoma, which connected some of their homes. The Muskogee - Tulsa area (where Carrie also performed pre-Idol) was the scene of many of their early dates, and they also later used Norman as a base. They seem to have had little connection with Stillwater, the original home of Red Dirt Music, though today they are considered a leading Red Dirt band in the broader sense, and are popular in the larger Texas regional market, centred on Austin and New Braunfels.
I posted one of my favourite songs by them on page 39 of this thread. For those who missed it, the link is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTYq66Tx1GY
Evan Felker (who writes or co-writes most of their songs) is the lead singer, and the unusual use of Native American-influenced chanting is led by the band's fiddler, Kyle Nix.
In light of the present controversy, this "cheating song" duet (a classic motif in the genre) may also be of prophetic interest. Evan sang it on an earlier album, with Jamie Lin Wilson (who plays banjo and kick drum in the quartet, the Trishas) - she has collaborated with the Troubadours on several occasions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuSuhSv3k_k
I respect the views of those who have an understandably negative view of the present situation, but, for my part, the best thing to come from it is the greater exposure of this important Roots band, and their music, in places like New York, where they might not previously have gained tour places
To give you an idea of the stylistic range the Troubadours cover, this is a quote from All Music:
"A gritty, country-leaning roots rock band out of eastern Oklahoma, Turnpike Troubadours at their best synthesize the populist, political folk of Woody Guthrie and the outlaw-styled honky tonk of Waylon Jennings with doses of bluegrass, Cajun, and straight-out rock dynamics."
Music of this sort has, until recently, had very little exposure in the Mainstream (and where this is changing today, e,g. in work by Eric Church, Chris Stapleton, Brothers Osborne, it probably owes a lot to the lead that Miranda has been using her position for years, as a critically acclaimed songwriter, album artist and relentless tour performer, to establish as an accepted strand - something that a variety of sites, from Rolling Stone to Saving Country Music, and from Billboard to Nashville Scene have acknowledged.
The Turnpike Troubadours seem to have first got together in Tahlequah in 2005 (so it is possible that Carrie knows some of the band). They took their name from the Indian Nation Turnpike, a road in the South East of Oklahoma, which connected some of their homes. The Muskogee - Tulsa area (where Carrie also performed pre-Idol) was the scene of many of their early dates, and they also later used Norman as a base. They seem to have had little connection with Stillwater, the original home of Red Dirt Music, though today they are considered a leading Red Dirt band in the broader sense, and are popular in the larger Texas regional market, centred on Austin and New Braunfels.
I posted one of my favourite songs by them on page 39 of this thread. For those who missed it, the link is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTYq66Tx1GY
Evan Felker (who writes or co-writes most of their songs) is the lead singer, and the unusual use of Native American-influenced chanting is led by the band's fiddler, Kyle Nix.
In light of the present controversy, this "cheating song" duet (a classic motif in the genre) may also be of prophetic interest. Evan sang it on an earlier album, with Jamie Lin Wilson (who plays banjo and kick drum in the quartet, the Trishas) - she has collaborated with the Troubadours on several occasions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuSuhSv3k_k
I respect the views of those who have an understandably negative view of the present situation, but, for my part, the best thing to come from it is the greater exposure of this important Roots band, and their music, in places like New York, where they might not previously have gained tour places
lizcarlo
Well-known member
For me when I'm listening to songs I think of how I relate to it and who it reminds me of like for example OS reminds me of my grandpa (who i miss very much) in the lyrics "Splittin logs,"(he always spilt wood up until about week before he passed away. he refused to use thing that splits wood for you when my uncle got one for him. very strong man)/Hand me down tools, Black and Decker (this reminds me of him because he loved being in his garage)/ He don't feel pain, only pleasure (he was softie but was very tough. he could take a lot of pain. in fact a doctor even said he toughest man he ever saw). Then there is Tin Man song where if you have had your heart broken over anything you can relate to never wanting to feel again. With the song GIAB I love how she turned getting older into humor that makes me laugh. It always puts smile on my face. When I listen to song I can relate to about my past or present that's what I think about. There are songs don't relate to in anyway (or to someone else) that I just enjoy like Highway Vagabond. For me its combination of loving Miranda artistry, growing with her music (been fan since the beginning) and the songs themselves are special to me for different reasons.
Farawayhills
Well-known member
Brent Cobb wrote Old **** in memory of his own grandfather, Eugene Barnum Cobb (1928-2012) - it can be a touching tribute to many well loved older relatives.
Miranda's use of that song, on Platinum, shows a side of her that may not mean a lot to some Mainstream fans - but it shows how she's willing to dig deep to represent different facets of the breadth of the genre. Brent Cobb has since gained a strong cult reputation - but he certainly wasn't famous when Miranda found and decided to use that evocative song. This video - rare footage from Miranda's recovery year, in a basement dive in Nashville, shows them singing the song together - this ability to move naturally between the big showcase stages and the small clubs, with no trace of celebrity pretension, is one of the things I most admire about her.