Carrie Underwood Fans

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News On Backlash To BB Asinine Rule Changes

teesharky

Well-known member

epicamends

New member
I will never understand why anybody reads the comments section on articles. It's absolutely pointless. The chances of changing a troll's mind by using actual logic is slim to none, so why even bother? I'll spend my extra time voting for Carrie for the AMA's and ACA's instead. ;)
 

gaycarebear

New member
I will never understand why anybody reads the comments section on articles. It's absolutely pointless. The chances of changing a troll's mind by using actual logic is slim to none, so why even bother? I'll spend my extra time voting for Carrie for the AMA's and ACA's instead. ;)

Well, considering you can only vote once per day, that takes all of 2 minutes ;) That's not alot of free time ;)
 

epicamends

New member
Well, considering you can only vote once per day, that takes all of 2 minutes ;) That's not alot of free time ;)

Not if you clear your cookies. ;)

But even still, my point remains the same - arguing with trolls is pointless, and there are more productive and positive ways to spend your time. :)
 

Farawayhills

Well-known member
I've (belatedly) had time to watch the 53 minute webcast of Bill Werde's replies to Jessica Northey's panel.

I agree with other posters that there were obvious objections - the panel members were sometimes a little difficult to understand, but I felt they were more channeling their own thoughts, rather than directly putting the specific questions that fans had posted. As a public question and answer session (if that was the intention) I found it lacking. It was a shame that Chuck Dauphin barely participated - he would have had specific knowledge (and his short historical survey elsewhere, "What Is Country Music?" which I hadn't seen before, was pretty accurate, in my view.) The new artist featured posed some interesting questions (though on other aspects than the chart debate).

Bill Werde, I felt, was not put under much specific pressure by the panel on the issues - allowing it to be largely a self justifying exercise. His reminiscences showed that he has a background very much in the Pop sector (which was not unexpected - but, again, it was a pity that he didn't call more on Chuck Dauphin, given that he was saying most of the objections were from Country fans). Both there, and on Twitter, as in his Billboard explanatory editorial, I felt he was skating over the issues by trivializing them as fan over-reactions (reinforced by his repetitive jokes about Carrie, Taylor and Scott Borchetta). Partly, no doubt, that is his manner and style of humour - but it also served the pretty obvious purpose of throwing up a smokescreen to cover the stylistic objections in favouring crossovers.

Nevertheless, although those objections made the exercise unsatisfactory - it did bring out what I feel were probably some hard truths that mean the new system is here to stay.

Firstly, I see no reason to doubt that they had discussions with the industry, and that the industry supported the change. I say that because it would make no sense for Billboard to spring something like this as a 'fait accompli', when its reputation and news stories are so closely tied to the wider music industry. Leave aside the likes of Rounder, Yep Roc, New West and Sugar Hill (who generally aren't in these charts anyway) - the major labels have been pushing Pop-friendly music and crossovers for a long time, and probably are happy with this general approach. A genuine storm from Nashville might have killed it - but that didn't happen (and almost certainly won't)

Secondly, Werde was able to rattle off the names on the new chart - they were a broad reflection of what radio would expect. The main dispute is largely focused on the top three places - and that almost certainly bothers us here more than it bothers most others. Billboard have admitted elsewhere that "deep genre" artists will likely slip down a few places - but Mainstream radio has, in general, little love for "deep genre" artists anyway - and tends to get much more excited about big name crossovers. Again, Billboard is likely to escape much objection.

Thirdly, there's the vexed question of the obvious Pop nature of the 'Never Ever' song (admitted to be Pop by Borchetta himself - hardly deniable, when it had Pop writers and producers and a primary Pop mix). But here, Billboard have no realistic choice but to call it a Country song. The blame for this lies squarely on Mainstream Country Radio - who were so used to the Taylor image that they played it anyway. The fact that it didn't rise above 13 is not a killer (if so, no song that didn't reach at least 12 could count.) Billboard can reject a future Taylor song that hasn't reached Country radio (and I think they have rejected one of the new ones) - but they certainly can't reject one that Country radio have already played for a few weeks and put into their own airplay top twenty - the Country call has already been made for them (even if it did make radio look more than a little bedazzled)

Fourthly, there's Werde's claim that he's received only a relatively small total number of complaints from among the legions of Country Music fans. Obviously, I've no way of knowing whether this is true - but the fact that only 600 people signed the petition (despite Herculean efforts by Jason, and the take-up by at least two well read blogs) suggest that his claim may not be too far off. He also says that most of the complaints can be traced back to people who also post a lot about Carrie. Again, this is uncheckable - but it does seem plausible, given the apparent general silence from most Country fan bases, and the special focus on the top places in the latest chart.

In summary, I'd like to say that I greatly appreciate the efforts of Jason, Triggerman and many individual fans in fighting this battle - they couldn't have done more, and it's in no way their fault that it didn't appear to lead to a wider reaction.
For my part, I'm not satisfied with Werde's reasoning about Pop airplay, nor with his attempts to shrug off objections. I don't think the question of Bilboard actively encouraging more crossovers has even been addressed at all. But, without an industry reaction, Billboard's "brand" is presumably intact.
 

teesharky

Well-known member
^ great post Faraway. I was extremely frustrated with the panel as they didn't answer any specific questions or tweets, and seems to laugh and mock the fans most of the session.

I can understand them avoiding direct questions about Taylor/Carrie--- but why wouldn't they answer basic questions about the timing of this debacle as taking plase so randomly in the middle of the Billboard calendar year-- instead of waiting a few more weeks until the new Billboard calendar year starts in November? It is so obvious it reeks of Scott Borchetta with it being 2 weeks before Taylor's release and the very week Carrie was to get a number one? That will bug me forever as he refuses to answer the question, and it makes him more suspicious.

But one thing you said worries/scares me: Why on earth would radio and the country industry support this change? I can't imagine they would benefit or be happy with Taylor being number 1 for years under the new rules? Surely they are smart enough to see what this chart means? I don't get it.

Something is not right about this at all.

Could it be that Cary is right-- that many of the big radio programmers are now former Pop radio big wigs-- and they pushed the country programmers out? If so-- the pop programmers running country stations would be fine with this change as they have no concept of what actual country music fans want or how important the history and tradition of country music is. They could care less if popteen star rules the charts for years as they have no real understanding that her songs are not country, nor do they care,

So when he claims that the industry favors this--- was he really saying pop music stations favor it, as well as country stations that are run by the new pop pgrogrammers?

Are they trying to make all country stations pop hybrid crossover stations? I don't get it.

Why would they favor this change? For what purpose? Is there $$ incentives to favor it? I am missing something really important here.

The silence is quite deafening--- but I am not convinced it means they like this change.

I honestly think people do not understand the full ramifications of the change. Do other fans follow the charts like we do? I doubt it.

CMT lied and printed that article only listing 2 elements of the Billboard change: Downloads and streaming. They did not mention the controversial element: Pop Airplay. Interesting.

Sadly- Scotty fans and some others are buying into the lies told by Billboard that this is good for them as it counts downloads and streaming. They don't seem to understand that it also counts Pop airplay, which will screw Scotty over forever as he will never be a pop crossover artist- never., I think country music fans of other artists are quiet as they don't understand the change or its full ramifications. They are being fed lies that this removes power from country radio and gives it to them.
 

Schrodinger

New member
I'm not sure who the industry leaders were who have not objected, but I can't imagine it is any of the independent labels like Broken Bow or Curb. For the for Nashville labels that are owned by the big media conglomerates, they may have had no choice, having been given marching orders. As for the artists, we have no way to know if there is serious objection being voiced by their management teams. The only real puzzle to me is country radio. I don't know why there has not been any comments from them. Granted CH is probably for it but they only own 50 stations. I still think something is going to happen when the top 10 get clogged with crossover artist(s)

The comments posted on Martina's official site forums show us that there is deep concern for how the changes affect veteran artists. There is no disputing the analysis of what the chat is going to do to the genre artists, what the reaction to that will be is yet to been seen. Remember, all the country media outlets who have not been critical and may love TS also have to be responsive to fans of other deeper genre artists. Further, most of the country music industry do love country music, not crossover pop. .When Miranda, Blake, ZZB Tim, Brad etc are shut out on that chart what is CMT, for example going to report on when they discuss chart success. The can't keep up the TS all the time, everytime show.

Question; after TS era cycles down do you see any deep genres artist making it to number one, or even into the top five. If so who? Also, what happens if a pop artist like Kelly gets a song classified country. Remember there is no distinction in sales between the pop and country versions. Beside TS what country artist could compete with a MKIA. I see two things that could happen. First, either the industry ignores the chart in favor of airplay or there will be pressure on artists and songwriters to move the entire genre to songs that crossover and those that don't will get slowly marginalized. If I'm wrong, give me another viable scenario.

I don't care what BW, SB or anyone else says, the result of the math in the chart rules is inescapable. The bottom line is, are fans going to accept either a crossover locked chart or their artists producing more crossover sounds. What is country radio going to play. There was a large outcry when stations here tried to play Never. What are listeners going to do when stations start playing more of that type of song. They are not a captive audience that can always find other ways to listen to the artists they want to hear. Radio is totally ad driven and ad revenue is dependent on the number of listeners. In some markets there may not be much impact, but in others country radio is going to have to play the songs their listeners want, despite what labels release or push to radio or they will go broke.

One thing's for sure, when award winners make their acceptance speeches, if some artists thank country radio it will be laughable.
 

clh_hilary

New member
I don't see why labels would support this really...I mean, it's possible that they'd like everybody to focus on crossover success, cuz that way they earn more money. But then, it's ALWAYS difficult to balance between the Country and the Pop markets. Or maybe they're just stupid...
 

Farawayhills

Well-known member
^ great post Faraway. I was extremely frustrated with the panel as they didn't answer any specific questions or tweets, and seems to laugh and mock the fans most of the session.

I can understand them avoiding direct questions about Taylor/Carrie--- but why wouldn't they answer basic questions about the timing of this debacle as taking plase so randomly in the middle of the Billboard calendar year-- instead of waiting a few more weeks until the new Billboard calendar year starts in November? It is so obvious it reeks of Scott Borchetta with it being 2 weeks before Taylor's release and the very week Carrie was to get a number one? That will bug me forever as he refuses to answer the question, and it makes him more suspicious.

But one thing you said worries/scares me: Why on earth would radio and the country industry support this change? I can't imagine they would benefit or be happy with Taylor being number 1 for years under the new rules? Surely they are smart enough to see what this chart means? I don't get it.

Something is not right about this at all.

Could it be that Cary is right-- that many of the big radio programmers are now former Pop radio big wigs-- and they pushed the country programmers out? If so-- the pop programmers running country stations would be fine with this change as they have no concept of what actual country music fans want or how important the history and tradition of country music is. They could care less if popteen star rules the charts for years as they have no real understanding that her songs are not country, nor do they care,

So when he claims that the industry favors this--- was he really saying pop music stations favor it, as well as country stations that are run by the new pop pgrogrammers?

Are they trying to make all country stations pop hybrid crossover stations? I don't get it.

Why would they favor this change? For what purpose? Is there $$ incentives to favor it? I am missing something really important here.

The silence is quite deafening--- but I am not convinced it means they like this change.

I honestly think people do not understand the full ramifications of the change. Do other fans follow the charts like we do? I doubt it.

CMT lied and printed that article only listing 2 elements of the Billboard change: Downloads and streaming. They did not mention the controversial element: Pop Airplay. Interesting.

Sadly- Scotty fans and some others are buying into the lies told by Billboard that this is good for them as it counts downloads and streaming. They don't seem to understand that it also counts Pop airplay, which will screw Scotty over forever as he will never be a pop crossover artist- never., I think country music fans of other artists are quiet as they don't understand the change or its full ramifications. They are being fed lies that this removes power from country radio and gives it to them.


I can only speculate on this. I have no new theory on the specific timing for the change (which, I agree, does coincide with a month when Taylor was releasing a series of downloads, to an audience who are among the biggest market for digital downloads, and also likely to include many "buy everything by her, and then buy the next version all over again" fans.) Obviously - as they admit - the timing did benefit her (and Rihanna and Psy, for reasons I have no knowledge of). But their argument is that it was a coincidence, and that the "top echelon" of Pop-friendly artists will benefit in turn, over time. All I can say on that is that the date for the changeover must have been planned well in advance - it really can't, logically, have been a "God, we must rush this through right now to stop Carrie!" move. (Whether the Taylor camp knew of the likely date well in advance, and planned their releases accordingly, is another matter - but if they did, I think it would be more proof of Borchetta's current business skill, rather than Billboard skullduggery)

On the question of why the industry seem to have supported the changes - I think there may be a number of factors. Werde pointed out one of them. Radio has become increasingly concentrated in large conglomerates, which are more and more general entertainment businesses, rather than genre specific. They still maintain genre stations - but the policies are more centralized - it's hardly surprising that they show increasingly Pop-friendly tendencies in their "top" music market leaders.

The major record labels also tend to see the crossover market as the most lucrative. A dollar's a dollar - and much of the big spending is coming from Pop or Pop-fringe "crossover"-friendly fans. Relatively few high spending young fans are particularly bothered about genre purity. UMG are probably the most pushy in that respect (Having seen Sony with the Dixie Chicks, Miranda and Carrie, I do think their in-house tradition has been more willing to back their artists' stylistic choices) But UMG's marketing of both Shania Twain and Taylor Swift was not at all Country-friendly. As I've said before, Taylor "broke" herself in England with a £10 student gig, that was about as Country as she ever got. But when UMG took over her international marketing, all mention of Country dropped. There were some Internet complaints by early adopters, that the versions on sale didn't sound the same as her American YouTube songs - but that was soon swamped by the legions of new young TayTay Pop fans, who "couldn't hit Country with a baseball bat". That is not, of course, the only trend, especially inside North America - but, even there, it is increasingly the major target growth market for big entertainment firms.

It's probably true that artists like George Strait are unlikely to top the new chart - but I think their market is in relative decline anyway - it's probably largely confined to CDs, with little penetration of the newer digital outlets, and less interest on social networking sites. That makes it less attractive to mass entertainment combines, increasingly chasing the advertizing and download revenue that goes with the growing youth market.

It's no exaggeration that many industry faces seem to light up, and many writers fall over themselves praising her image, when they discuss Taylor. Consciously, or unconsciously, talent and artistic variety can take second place to strong market connection and credibility with large numbers of new fans. This doesn't mean other names will disappear from the new chart (more than the turnover that occurs anyway). Werde's probably right that the roster of names still reads much as it did before the change. The positioning will change a bit - but that will be most noticeable at the very top.

The most serious potential issues are probably still the effect on new artists, the effect on Country songwriters and session musicians, and the pressure to fulfill fan and label expectations by going more Pop. We don't know the extent to which that will now be accelerated, but, unfortunately, it's a trend that's been already well underway. (In any case, it seems to have been almost completely ignored in the replies we've heard)
 

jptexas

Well-known member
We can post and discuss this topic till we're blue in the face, but Billboard is dead set on this new chart. Like I've said before,
if we want keep pressure on their publication, we should just keep remarking on any, and I mean any music chart/blog/site with an asterisk that signifies, ***"this supposed fact is not recognized by the country music listener". I'm thinking after a while they'll either change it back or just go batty. Either way, we win, especially if they go batty. jmho
 

gaycarebear

New member
I agree w/ most of your post Farawayhills. I do think there will be more pop-leaning songs produced, but overall, I don't see many current Country artists doing that. Miranda Lambert, Brad Paisley, Eric Church and Blake Shelton are just a few that I don't see going that direction.
 

Schrodinger

New member
I agree w/ most of your post Farawayhills. I do think there will be more pop-leaning songs produced, but overall, I don't see many current Country artists doing that. Miranda Lambert, Brad Paisley, Eric Church and Blake Shelton are just a few that I don't see going that direction.

Does anyone Remember the movie Demolition Man - Stallone, Snipes,& Bullock. Stallone plays a cop framed for mass murder; is put into suspended animation; then awakes in what appears to be a uptionina society. A world where Taco Time won the fast food wars so all restaurants are Taco Times. The music everyone listens to is called "Golden Oldies" but are just 30-60 second commercial jingles. There's a scene where the Bullock character starts "rocking out" to If I were an I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiener

I have nightmares that everything is moving toward the crap that passes for Pop today, as opposed to real pop back in the day. The craptastic pop slowly devolves into jingles - Then I wake up in a cold sweat.:confused::(:(
 

cyberzoney

Active member
Thank you Farawayhills. Your last 2 posts are the most rational posts on this subject that I have read. Instead of anger, conspiracy theories, and fabrication of issues, you have objectively commented on the topic with a consideration for both sides. It's refreshing that we have some that can do that. It's posting like this that gets respect from others in the long run.
 

teesharky

Well-known member
^ Faraway thanx for your excellent explanation. I agree with alot of what you said-- but I still hate the change, still hate that Pop Programmers are running country stations, and still hate that country artists will need to pop remix in order to compete on this chart.

Bill never answered the question about Country stars who don't want to Pop remix or pander to Pop radio such as Brad Paisley, Miranda, Blake, Eric Church, etc. I get that George and Alan may be close to retiring anyway, but Miranda is redneck and sounds way too country to ever cross over to pop radio. Brad is a country boy and proud of it. He is not looking for any crossovers.

So this is still horrible and I still hate it.

Why do you think the industry execs and journalists "light up" whenever Taylor is mentioned? What is up with the adoration? Do they not have ears? I am so confused.
 

Farawayhills

Well-known member
Taylor and Kelly Clarkson are examples of artists who stand to benefit from all four of the elements in the "Hot" songs calculation (Pop Airplay, Country Airplay, Streaming and Downloads). But Carrie and Miranda definitely stand to benefit from at least three of those. Werde said that the new digital data accounts for around 40% of the calculation - and I think Carrie and Miranda do, and will continue to do well on those. Airplay therefore counts for about 60% - and Carrie and Miranda may have to get more of that from the Country part (whereas Taylor and Kelly can spread it more across the genres). But that doesn't mean that Carrie is doomed to get no cross-genre support - it isn't only remixes that play on general music stations. Carrie can still stay loyal to Country and still attract a wide fan base, who are not necessarily primarily Country fans. Many loyal posters here aren't primarily Country oriented - but they don't turn away because Carrie plays the Opry, hosts the CMAs and duets with Country stars. Carrie's been able to balance wide support with her genre loyalty; she doesn't remix, but she still has appeal outside her genre base.

Miranda does, as you say, have less appeal outside Country - but that just means she has to capitalize more on her large digital following, and on her strength within the genre. Simon Renshaw, the Dixie Chicks' manager, built her up into a Mainstream favourite, and when Marion Kraft left Renshaw's firm, Miranda went with her. I'm not sure if "Four the Record" has actually done as well as Revolution - but I don't see her career as flagging. The Pistol Annies project suggests that she's happy with her genre identity, and isn't seeking to change it.

No one can deny that this system will benefit people like Taylor and Kelly - that is because they already have a very strong base in the growing and high spending part of the mass music demand (which is why much of the industry sees them as big assets). I'm afraid that is going to trump genre loyalty. Only one Mainstream Country reporting station apparently refused to play "Never Ever" at all. The others gradually dropped it - but, on release, Taylor's reputation was just too big to ignore.

But that doesn't mean that other artists are doomed - it just means they have to rely a bit more on the other areas in the equation. Carrie is very big on Country radio, and I think big in digital demand - she'll still have a large inflow into the overall calculation. The big worry for the new system is probably for the older artists who have less digital demand, for new artists who may be pressured into appearing less Country, and possibly for songwriters and studio musicians who could be passed over if the label favour a more Pop approach
 

teesharky

Well-known member
^ miranda doesn't sell that many digital downloads actually. She did well for THTBM and a few songs, but her latest single is struggling to even hit Gold.
 

sco

Well-known member
We can post and discuss this topic till we're blue in the face, but Billboard is dead set on this new chart. Like I've said before,
if we want keep pressure on their publication, we should just keep remarking on any, and I mean any music chart/blog/site with an asterisk that signifies, ***"this supposed fact is not recognized by the country music listener". I'm thinking after a while they'll either change it back or just go batty. Either way, we win, especially if they go batty. jmho

Personally I don't think they wil change the system back. They will probably make minor tweaks, Bill Werde said as much in one of his tweets. The fact that the charts skew to pop crossover was obviously intentional. The recording industry is not in the business of biting the hand that feeds it. They aren't about to publicly denounce the system. They very well may ignore it and just use the airplay chart. The opposite of love is not hate it is indifference. The only way Billboard will make major modifications is if they start losing business.
 

sco

Well-known member
Why do you think the industry execs and journalists "light up" whenever Taylor is mentioned? What is up with the adoration? Do they not have ears? I am so confused.

I know you weren't asking me but I have a couple of theories. One is that success breeds success and nobody can deny that Taylor is successful. Second, for whatever reason young people relate to her. She speaks their language. She's far from the first artist to build a successful career on the strength of their songwriting despite weak vocal skills. Industry execs and journalists recognize her appeal to the primary market for the music industry. (I'm showing my age but after being forced to endure an hour in American Eagle today and hearing their "music" selection Taylor is sounding good.)
 

Schrodinger

New member
HAZ BINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!

-.- Lord.

Did you say sonthging or were you clearing your throat? :cool::cool::cool:

So We need specific speculation! If we're all going to speculate anyway, let's not just do it in generalities--- This chart is going to help a few and hurt a lot. who? Go to the Chart Game thread and say who you think is going to sink or swim. This is not about having fun or laughing about and artist's careers or playing a game at the expense of any artist. This is discussion about who we here believe have the best hopes and those in trouble. Can we get a consensus on at least some the winners? Losers? I'm hoping we can have lively e.g. normal CF discussion on some of the of the artists. There's no purpose just looking at one artist here or another there. Let's look at all the players. These kind of question need participation -
 
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