rainbow1
Active member
Yes, I meant that they read all of Dudley's comments on that page.
Carrie Underwood Fans
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Two Black Cadillacs On The Mediabase Charts (Blown Away Era)
- Thread starter cary78663
- Start date
Yes, I meant that they read all of Dudley's comments on that page.
pklongbeach
Active member
Appreciate alot of the discussion there.
It seems funny that on a more objective board like Pulse people can talk critically about Miranda and positively about Carrie and not get shamed for it. But here we are not really allowed to do that without the term "hater" throw all over the place.
Reading that one page does continue to solidify for me the idea that voters with these organizations are no different than kids in school voting for "most popular". I don't know if it has always been this obvious, but it sure is obvious now.
And especially voting to support ones "friends allies associates peers "bosses". And little to none of it having to do with clear merit.
And it points out another issue that Carrie and her publicists face: Carrie is a big star now. Pushing her too aggressively, too often, can come across as over-kill. She herself does now seem to wish to go to great lengths to "create stories and media buzz". But others; Miranda, Blake, Taylor Luke, do seem to wish to play the game to create momentum and there by get voted for cause they appear to be the popular kids in class.
ITs a tough choice for Carrie to have to make to be legitimate honest hardworking and not "cohersive" in her efforts to push her brand on the public. But, based on what I read, if she does not push, others will push their agendas and she will get ignored. Which is basically what is happening during BA era while she is doing tremendously well, but no one seems to pay attention to it.
I also fully agree with comments about Overton. I think it is two-fold: He is intentionally choosing to push and promote Miranda at the expense of Carrie. And I don't think he is influencial enough to have much impact in general.
HE is still the newie in town with regard to influence and reputation, and Borchetta is using the opportunity to force himself into position as the strongest influence in town.
(I also found it interesting that there was buzz that if Carrie feels like she is no longer with a strong enough outfit to handle her career, she could and maybe should move on)
It seems funny that on a more objective board like Pulse people can talk critically about Miranda and positively about Carrie and not get shamed for it. But here we are not really allowed to do that without the term "hater" throw all over the place.
Reading that one page does continue to solidify for me the idea that voters with these organizations are no different than kids in school voting for "most popular". I don't know if it has always been this obvious, but it sure is obvious now.
And especially voting to support ones "friends allies associates peers "bosses". And little to none of it having to do with clear merit.
And it points out another issue that Carrie and her publicists face: Carrie is a big star now. Pushing her too aggressively, too often, can come across as over-kill. She herself does now seem to wish to go to great lengths to "create stories and media buzz". But others; Miranda, Blake, Taylor Luke, do seem to wish to play the game to create momentum and there by get voted for cause they appear to be the popular kids in class.
ITs a tough choice for Carrie to have to make to be legitimate honest hardworking and not "cohersive" in her efforts to push her brand on the public. But, based on what I read, if she does not push, others will push their agendas and she will get ignored. Which is basically what is happening during BA era while she is doing tremendously well, but no one seems to pay attention to it.
I also fully agree with comments about Overton. I think it is two-fold: He is intentionally choosing to push and promote Miranda at the expense of Carrie. And I don't think he is influencial enough to have much impact in general.
HE is still the newie in town with regard to influence and reputation, and Borchetta is using the opportunity to force himself into position as the strongest influence in town.
(I also found it interesting that there was buzz that if Carrie feels like she is no longer with a strong enough outfit to handle her career, she could and maybe should move on)
DaisyTweets
Active member
Where are people seeing the Sony after party pictures? Anyone care to share the link??? Thanks!
DaisyTweets
Active member
Thanks for pointing that link out. Guess I missed when I first read the posts over there.
Farawayhills
Well-known member
Thanks for that link, Rainbow - I think the writer makes some very interesting and valid points, moving away from both the statistical emphasis on people "deserving" to win because they're "bigger" than the actual winner, and on people not winning because they're "snubbed" by people who "dislike" them. While both those things can have elements of truth - they're not particularly helpful, because they go round in circles and don't contain any suggestions for how things might change.
The points the Pulse board writer makes, though, are more practical.
1. Carrie lacking a readily identifiable image in her writing and song choices ----I think that contains quite a bit of truth. Her songwriting contributions shouldn't be under-rated, but I think it's fair to say it isn't easy to spot a consistent pattern that differentiates her co-writes from her other songs.
A few of her co-writes have been autobiographical. I saw the early co-writes, IAICAM and CD, as personal songs, which reflected ideas that gave me a definite sense that they came from Carrie herself. (AAG is said to be semi-autobiographical, but it didn't give me much sense of connection to Carrie - it seemed more a generic female life passage song) MS is one that had charm for me, and I'd rate it higher than some other fans do - but I'd agree it needed more developed lyrical themes. But even if she included more autobiographical songs, I don't think it would be wise to take that too far in her songwriting.
The faith-based aspect is obviously important to Carrie, but her songs with a spiritual message are not especially ones she's written. (Although the Pulse post seemed to suggest otherwise, I didn't really pick up religious undertones in TBC, and I'd relate that song more to BA than to TH). TH obviously has a specifically Heaven-focused last verse, but I'm convinced the song is intended to be more complex - blending Carrie's social concerns with her religious vision. The episodes of the orphan boy and the single mother are sometimes overshadowed by the death scene, and subsumed by listeners into an assumption that we don't really belong here and are on our way to Heaven. But I don't think that was Carrie's intention. At a climatic point in the song, she emphatically sings "find a place in this world". Some of the reviews did spot the social awareness aspect (and relate it to "Change") - and I see that as one of the strengths of the song. Carrie could well develop more songwriting of that type (perhaps with her early inspiration drawn from "Praying For Time" in mind.) But again, care would be needed not to overdo it, as there's often a fine line for listeners between thought provoking and "preaching"
2. If Carrie does have a dominant image now (even more so in singles) it's in the "feisty", woman-scorned, look-out-faithless-lover type of song which recurs in every album era. In general, this is a good image for contemporary Country. Carrie uses it to effect, varies the themes, and avoids stereotyping. But I'd agree with the poster that it may not be coming across strongly enough for the voters. This is not because she varies it with other songs (she needs variety) - but I think it may be because she shows a tendency to talk it down. Carrie has songs indicative of a strong female personality (which I think many current voters love), but too often, I feel she rather plays them down, e.g by referring to them as "fun songs". or something that needs to be lightened. It's already clear to most people that the stories are unreal - as they are for practically every singer attempting those themes. But if the singer makes too much of a point of appearing not to believe in her image, people are less likely to see it standing out from the crowd. You can weaken a powerful song by appearing to backtrack from it.
3. I defer completely to the writer on the industry points, as I can't claim to know the inside label and publicist position at all. But I do think it's plausible to say that Carrie could benefit from more targeted publicity. Although things like the boy's first kiss on the tour got publicity (perhaps mainly from internet viral fan interest), other things like Carrie's charity donations and her support for the anti-slavery campaign seem to be less widely known. Obviously, we have to be careful here, because Carrie herself may not want to "boast" about things she does (though she has tweeted about the campaign herself). Articles about dresses and her marriage are certainly part of the picture - but a bit one-dimensional. I can see the advantages in getting more articles in the up-market and specialist magazines, to increase the exposure and appeal to a wider demographic (As one example, I follow Emily and Martie of the Dixie Chicks, and they've had separate photo spreads in various Texas magazines about both their houses, Martie's recording studio, and I think Emily's pets).
4. Dudley says "I should also note that the Pistol Annies project also allows Miranda to reinforce her image as someone who defies mainstream country conventions in a time when her solo music and image have taken a turn toward the mainstream. "
That is something I strongly agree with. Carrie could benefit from more balance in her image. Her main career is obviously in the Mainstream - which is exactly why she could benefit from reinforcing her connections with the more deep genre side of Country Music. Note that I'm not] suggesting she should move away from the Mainstream - I accept that's her principal career base. What I am suggesting is that she balances that by cultivating more secondary links with songwriters and artists that give her place in the Country milieu a bit more credibility (as Miranda does). Miranda's image, too, is primarily that of a commercial Mainstream singer - but one who retains a Roots link. Carrie gives less of that impression. To give a couple examples - Carrie gives necklaces to American Idol finalists; Miranda takes young discoveries out on performance with her. Carrie takes part in side projects outside Country Music; Miranda gives strong backing to Ashleys Pistol Annies project - transforming it from a songwriters' attempt to bring some Roots feel back into the Mainstream to something with star appeal. Which is likely to appeal to some genre voters as a more solidly Country identification? At the moment, Carrie is relying mainly on the Opry (her biggest ally and mutual love) to maintain her deep genre connections. I warmly endorse that as a great commitment on her part - but I'm not sure it cuts much ice with industry voters (most big chart stars spend little time at the Opry, and I'm not sure the recording industry gives it more than superficial respect). I'm certainly not suggesting Carrie scales that down - but I think she also needs to add more ways of reinforcing her image in Country.
5. I understand that Carrie is a private person - but it does seem that other artists put more emphasis on the mixing and joint appearances that they make. E.g. yesterday Ashley retweeted a picture that Reba had publicized of a girls' fun night in Vegas, involving Reba , Faith Hill, Kelly Clarkson, Shania Twain, Miranda Lambert and the Annies.
Reba McEntire's photo "Great bunch of friends!!! Fun..." on WhoSay
I know some fans will immediately pounce on an evil Reba plot to promote her future daughter-in-law as the coming queen - but the point I'm making is that Carrie could also benefit from a few more appearances within the genre - or even organize them. I realize she may well not want to make her friendships a source of publicity, and those personal preferences are something no one can decide for her - but it may be another reason why her image isn't seen so often by the voters.
So those are some thoughts on Dudley's Pulse posting. I think she's definitely onto something - though there may be no easy answers that solve the situation
The points the Pulse board writer makes, though, are more practical.
1. Carrie lacking a readily identifiable image in her writing and song choices ----I think that contains quite a bit of truth. Her songwriting contributions shouldn't be under-rated, but I think it's fair to say it isn't easy to spot a consistent pattern that differentiates her co-writes from her other songs.
A few of her co-writes have been autobiographical. I saw the early co-writes, IAICAM and CD, as personal songs, which reflected ideas that gave me a definite sense that they came from Carrie herself. (AAG is said to be semi-autobiographical, but it didn't give me much sense of connection to Carrie - it seemed more a generic female life passage song) MS is one that had charm for me, and I'd rate it higher than some other fans do - but I'd agree it needed more developed lyrical themes. But even if she included more autobiographical songs, I don't think it would be wise to take that too far in her songwriting.
The faith-based aspect is obviously important to Carrie, but her songs with a spiritual message are not especially ones she's written. (Although the Pulse post seemed to suggest otherwise, I didn't really pick up religious undertones in TBC, and I'd relate that song more to BA than to TH). TH obviously has a specifically Heaven-focused last verse, but I'm convinced the song is intended to be more complex - blending Carrie's social concerns with her religious vision. The episodes of the orphan boy and the single mother are sometimes overshadowed by the death scene, and subsumed by listeners into an assumption that we don't really belong here and are on our way to Heaven. But I don't think that was Carrie's intention. At a climatic point in the song, she emphatically sings "find a place in this world". Some of the reviews did spot the social awareness aspect (and relate it to "Change") - and I see that as one of the strengths of the song. Carrie could well develop more songwriting of that type (perhaps with her early inspiration drawn from "Praying For Time" in mind.) But again, care would be needed not to overdo it, as there's often a fine line for listeners between thought provoking and "preaching"
2. If Carrie does have a dominant image now (even more so in singles) it's in the "feisty", woman-scorned, look-out-faithless-lover type of song which recurs in every album era. In general, this is a good image for contemporary Country. Carrie uses it to effect, varies the themes, and avoids stereotyping. But I'd agree with the poster that it may not be coming across strongly enough for the voters. This is not because she varies it with other songs (she needs variety) - but I think it may be because she shows a tendency to talk it down. Carrie has songs indicative of a strong female personality (which I think many current voters love), but too often, I feel she rather plays them down, e.g by referring to them as "fun songs". or something that needs to be lightened. It's already clear to most people that the stories are unreal - as they are for practically every singer attempting those themes. But if the singer makes too much of a point of appearing not to believe in her image, people are less likely to see it standing out from the crowd. You can weaken a powerful song by appearing to backtrack from it.
3. I defer completely to the writer on the industry points, as I can't claim to know the inside label and publicist position at all. But I do think it's plausible to say that Carrie could benefit from more targeted publicity. Although things like the boy's first kiss on the tour got publicity (perhaps mainly from internet viral fan interest), other things like Carrie's charity donations and her support for the anti-slavery campaign seem to be less widely known. Obviously, we have to be careful here, because Carrie herself may not want to "boast" about things she does (though she has tweeted about the campaign herself). Articles about dresses and her marriage are certainly part of the picture - but a bit one-dimensional. I can see the advantages in getting more articles in the up-market and specialist magazines, to increase the exposure and appeal to a wider demographic (As one example, I follow Emily and Martie of the Dixie Chicks, and they've had separate photo spreads in various Texas magazines about both their houses, Martie's recording studio, and I think Emily's pets).
4. Dudley says "I should also note that the Pistol Annies project also allows Miranda to reinforce her image as someone who defies mainstream country conventions in a time when her solo music and image have taken a turn toward the mainstream. "
That is something I strongly agree with. Carrie could benefit from more balance in her image. Her main career is obviously in the Mainstream - which is exactly why she could benefit from reinforcing her connections with the more deep genre side of Country Music. Note that I'm not] suggesting she should move away from the Mainstream - I accept that's her principal career base. What I am suggesting is that she balances that by cultivating more secondary links with songwriters and artists that give her place in the Country milieu a bit more credibility (as Miranda does). Miranda's image, too, is primarily that of a commercial Mainstream singer - but one who retains a Roots link. Carrie gives less of that impression. To give a couple examples - Carrie gives necklaces to American Idol finalists; Miranda takes young discoveries out on performance with her. Carrie takes part in side projects outside Country Music; Miranda gives strong backing to Ashleys Pistol Annies project - transforming it from a songwriters' attempt to bring some Roots feel back into the Mainstream to something with star appeal. Which is likely to appeal to some genre voters as a more solidly Country identification? At the moment, Carrie is relying mainly on the Opry (her biggest ally and mutual love) to maintain her deep genre connections. I warmly endorse that as a great commitment on her part - but I'm not sure it cuts much ice with industry voters (most big chart stars spend little time at the Opry, and I'm not sure the recording industry gives it more than superficial respect). I'm certainly not suggesting Carrie scales that down - but I think she also needs to add more ways of reinforcing her image in Country.
5. I understand that Carrie is a private person - but it does seem that other artists put more emphasis on the mixing and joint appearances that they make. E.g. yesterday Ashley retweeted a picture that Reba had publicized of a girls' fun night in Vegas, involving Reba , Faith Hill, Kelly Clarkson, Shania Twain, Miranda Lambert and the Annies.
Reba McEntire's photo "Great bunch of friends!!! Fun..." on WhoSay
I know some fans will immediately pounce on an evil Reba plot to promote her future daughter-in-law as the coming queen - but the point I'm making is that Carrie could also benefit from a few more appearances within the genre - or even organize them. I realize she may well not want to make her friendships a source of publicity, and those personal preferences are something no one can decide for her - but it may be another reason why her image isn't seen so often by the voters.
So those are some thoughts on Dudley's Pulse posting. I think she's definitely onto something - though there may be no easy answers that solve the situation
rainbow1
Active member
Thanks so much, Faraway. I really appreciate your thoughts. I think Carrie's shyness plays a big part in some of this. It has been mentioned from the very start...from her Checotah friends...and then Sorority friends. I don't think she is one to take the lead. I think she feels so indepted to AI....I know we all thought that she might take Lauren on tour with her, but no. I find it rather surprising that she isn't choosing more country songs as singles...any thing that I have ever heard from her, before she was discovered....was Country!! So we assume, that she thinks her audience is split. It's all hard to figure. She appears to be happy...I just want the best for her.
carrie admirer
Member
How much did TBC sold in the past week??
Does anyone knows?
Does anyone knows?
Pi314CA
Active member
Carrie track sales published thus far:
TBC 31,000 ... total = 660,000
BA 26,000 ... total = 2,061,000
judes
New member
I think the label picks the singles - she would prob have countrier singles if it was up to her I bet - but Blown Away and TBC were givens this era and she was a big influence on the production of the Blown Away track we know according to what both Carrie and Mark Bright have said - she loves country but likes to push boundaries.
DizzyDollyDee
Active member
I cannot picture the Carrie that has been portrayed to us running around Vegas with the list of ladies that were mentioned. It just doesn't seem to be her lifestyle. Totally into seeing shows with her Mom, sisters when they have been in town, going to dinner with family, running back to Mike when that's been plausible but never rumored to be partying much with a bunch of ladies. I also was surprised about Lauren not being on tour with her but do believe the timing hasn't been perfect for Lauren - getting new music, etc. I love what Carrie gives us, she likes singing the songs she puts out there and I think she is working hard not to let the politics and lack of awards not hurt her so much and just pick what she does enjoy about the business and run with it. Her shy and private leaning personality restricts her making her own contacts - she just isn't the party-schmoozing type! jmo
Farawayhills
Well-known member
I'm more than fine with her pushing boundaries - that was why I was delighted with the first three singles. My concern is when they release simpler, catchy, "reassurance" songs, that won't be widely seen as pushing boundaries. Such songs may well become hits for a few weeks, but do less for Carrie's overall reputation in the sector. All artists do have less stellar single releases that do their reputation few favours - but (in terms of what Dudley was suggesting, about Carrie not always being seen by voters as having a strong enough or clearly defined image) it may be more questionable in her case. I think what Dudley was saying was that, if the artist is already felt to have a clear identity, she can ride through a few less innovative, or even weaker, singles, and her established image will still hold in people's minds.
I agree that the label picks the singles. I think Carrie's pretty well confirmed that by saying she hoped TBC would be a single, and hoped FC would not be one.
In the case of the upcoming single, SYA, this is what she said in her 92.5X interview, just before the ACMs:
"We had, like, BA and TBC. So I was, like 'can we please come out with a happier song?'. So, yes, 'See You Again' . So we did - I feel better"
I would interpret that to mean that she was asking, in general terms, for a happier type of song - but may still have been surprised that they chose that particular one. (I base that on the fact that she's rarely performed it - which seems rather surprising
if that was the one she'd had strongly in mind; and also on the impression that she seems to feel a bit more need to make special reference to the choice, on Twitter or here, as if she's explaining and and getting behind it, in a way that I didn't notice with the others)
Artists may have more direct control on smaller labels - which may be why Alison Krauss has stayed with Rounder all her life, and why some of the established mid career artists try to start their own labels. "Majors" may tend to be more concerned with the product turnover of their roster as a whole than with the specific career priorities of any one artist. The artist is in a strong position if her sales dominate the entire roster (as seems to be the case with Taylor Swift), but otherwise, their concerns have to be juggled with the labels overall promotional priorities.
Farawayhills
Well-known member
I think that's very true (and also what Dizzy Dolly Dee said about her private lifestyle). I can't see Carrie doing all these things, and, as I said, no one can take that sort of decision for her.
I suspect that she's not overly concerned about awards. True, she's once or twice mentioned she likes to win - but I think there's a risk that those occasional, and quite natural, remarks have been blown up out of proportion by some fans, into seeing them as a major priority. People want her to be seen as the main winner - so it's assumed that that must also be a big priority for her too, and that she must be devastated if it doesn't happen. I doubt if that's so - it doesn't seem consistent with either her personality or her behaviour. If it really were so important, I think she'd find more ways of putting herself more firmly into the process.
The importance of Dudley's analysis is that it offers practical (and I think, well-informed), reasons why Carrie may have been seen as an exciting newcomer to be rewarded, but in latter years, may have not have been seen as the most clearly identified artist in many voters minds.
Every industry award show, it seems, leads to the same heated discussion - we vent for many pages, but basically always come down to the same points (the label's not supporting, people are snubbing her, it's all back room deals and politics). But there've been far fewer suggestions as to what Carrie might do to counteract those things - if she were so minded. That's why I found this discussion an important contribution to the issue.
I think Dudley is on the right lines with some of the suggestions - but in the end only Carrie can decide how far any of those things amount to a path she's comfortable following. I still get the impression that's she's enjoying her career as it is - and that the frustrations are more ours than hers. Realistically, she seems to be fulfilling her "crazy dreams", and still finding new challenges to meet. And her priorities are hers to decide.
opry051008
New member
The day Carrie changes her life so she can be more visible in order to win more awards is the day that Carrie is no longer the person that we have come to love.
epicamends
New member
Personally, I think Carrie is the single most versatile artist of any genre in our generation, and if that means she has a less easily identifiable image then oh well. Her versatility is one of the main things I love about her artistry. 
Pi314CA
Active member
The conduct at Pulse is much more to the point with the expectation of supported data for the point being made. Very little fluff. Very little off tangent discussions and needing to be 'sensitive' to feelings (just in a straight matter-of-fact) way. Personally, I like the succinct, to the point posts.
The conduct and atmosphere is very different here, and that's fine. I love the fervor and passion being exuded here from time to time.